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Mob Rule
Sharon-"Well then, let's go to another question then: Why don't you follow the other laws taught and followed by Jesus as listed in the Old Testament? Like keeping kosher? Like observing Passover? There are many, many laws that you and your fellow [C]hristians chose not to follow. Why do you only follow some and not others?"
We are under the New Covenant. During His earthly ministry, as recorded in the Gospel accounts, Jesus was under the Old Testament (Mosaic) law. He lived in obedience to the Old Covenant law. Though He alluded to the transition between the Old and New Covenants, Matthew 9:17; Mark 2:22; and Luke 5:37-38, the transition did not formally begin to occur until Jesus introduced the New Covenant in the last supper.
The Book of Acts contains historical accounts of the transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. This was not an easy transition for Jewish believers.
Generally speaking, the "ceremonial" requirements (temple sacrifices, Sabbath requirements, etc.) do not apply to believers under the New Covenant. The moral requirements, however, still apply and are reaffirmed as applying to believers today.
Sadly, your question is one that many Christians find difficult to answer today. It's really not that difficult of a question, however. The Epistles tell us specifically which Old Covenant or Mosaic law requirements still apply or do not apply to believers today. Entire Epistles, such as Galatians and Hebrews, discuss this question.
As far as homosexuality is concerned, it is clear that it is prohibited under the New Covenant. It is prohibited under the Mosaic law. E.g., Lev. 18:22 & 20:13. This prohibition is carried forward under the New Covenant. E.g., Rom. 1:26-27; 1 Cor. 6:9.
"Like keeping kosher". Lev. 11. This is addressed in Rom. 14:1-4, 6 & 13-23, and other passages. E.g., Acts 10:13-15 & 28-29; Acts 11:7-18; 1 Cor. 8:9-10; Col. 2:16; Heb. 9:10.
"Like observing Passover?". Christ is our Passover. 1 Cor. 5:7; 1 Pet. 1:19; Acts 20:28; John 1:29. The Passover, and the better sacrifice of Jesus Christ, is addressed at length in the Book of Hebrews.
I will say this, if you go by what people tell you or by what people write here and elsewhere, you will be confused. If you read the Bible in its entirety for yourself, and draw your own conclusions, all of this will become very clear.
I'm not just saying this to you. I talked to a man from our church who is attending seminary, or I should say he wanted to talk to me. He was in Sunday school when we had a discussion on Calvinism. In the middle of the class, he asked me if I agreed with what John Piper writes about Armenianism. (John Piper is the leading Calvinist today in this country, and is most responsible for the spread of Calvinism in American churches today.)
After class, he wanted to discuss this some more. As we talked, he rattled off the names of many Bible commentators and theologians. He wanted to know which Bible commentators or theologians that I followed. I tried, with little success in the short time we talked, to get him to understand that ultimately we have to base our conclusions on what is taught in the entire Bible, not find someone else whose views we will then follow. I tell people that before turning to a Bible commentary, we need to pray, then make sure that we review at least 6 (10 would even be better) commentaries (not all from the same school of thought, of course) before starting to draw a conclusion.
Mob Rule
Sharon asked:
"I don't think Jesus said anything about marriage, homosexual or otherwise. Please show me where Jesus said anything about marriage. Thank you."
Matthew 19:3-9 "Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?" 4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." 7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning." 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
Mob Rule
Deacon posted:
Oh, am I to understand that Jesus' statements on marriage-as being between a man & woman-supports homosexual "marriage"? That's silly.
I don't think Jesus said anything about marriage, homosexual or otherwise. Please show me where Jesus said anything about marriage. Thank you.
Jesus obeyed the Old Testament law, which prohibited homosexuality.
Well then, let's go to another question then: Why don't you follow the other laws taught and followed by Jesus as listed in the Old Testament? Like keeping kosher? Like observing Passover? There are many, many laws that you and your fellow christians chose not to follow. Why do you only follow some and not others?
Mob Rule
Deacon posted:
Silly question.
Why is it silly? You say the Apostles had wives, how do you know Jesus didn't have sexual relations with some one special? I'm being serious here. You don't know.
The Bible has been edited and re-written many, many times. I'm sure a lot was deleted.
The truth is: You really don't know. Not a silly question.
Mob Rule
Sharon--"'8 Mile posted: I do. Jesus reaffirmed marriage as between one man and one women. He went all the way back to "in the beginning". He also referred to fornication, i.e., sexual relations outside a male/female marriage relationship.' I've not read where Jesus ever said anything about homosexuals."
Oh, am I to understand that Jesus' statements on marriage-as being between a man & woman-supports homosexual "marriage"? That's silly. Jesus obeyed the Old Testament law, which prohibited homosexuality.
"And you really don't know if he was homosexual or not."
Silly question.
"Did he have sexual relations with women?"
Silly question.
"He was a virgin?"
Silly question.
"Were his Apostles virgins, never having lain with a woman? Or did they leave their wives and children to fend for themselves while they went traipsing all over with Jesus?"
"Traipsing"?
Most took their believing wives with them. Paul pointed this out in a rhetorical question.
1 Cor. 9:5--"Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?"
Mob Rule
8 Mile posted:
I do. Jesus reaffirmed marriage as between one man and one women. He went all the way back to "in the beginning". He also referred to fornication, i.e., sexual relations outside a male/female marriage relationship.
I've not read where Jesus ever said anything about homosexuals. And you really don't know if he was homosexual or not. Did he have sexual relations with women? He was a virgin? Were his Apostles virgins, never having lain with a woman? Or did they leave their wives and children to fend for themselves while they went traipsing all over with Jesus?
Mob Rule
Sharon-"And it's still as wrong and it still is discriminatory."
It's not a recognized right. It's not discriminatory to adhere to the traditional male/female marriage.
"Tell me, as I've asked you before and you never did answer - how is it going to hurt you and/or your family if two lesbians got married? Or two homosexuals?"
The state can take steps to protect its citizens. The state prohibits me from using crack cocaine in the privacy of my own home. The states traditionally have has sound reasons for prohibiting homosexual practices.
I've also mentioned previously my concerns that innocent children not be denied the right to have a mother and a father.
Your point is important. If traditional marriage proponents do not articulate convincing counter-points or arguments, then will fail in seeking to halt adoption of the same sex marriage redefinition.
"How do you know Jesus or any of his 12 Apostles weren't gay? Seriously? You don't."
I do. Jesus reaffirmed marriage as between one man and one women. He went all the way back to "in the beginning". He also referred to fornication, i.e., sexual relations outside a male/female marriage relationship.
Lynn-"Kalamazoo voters approve anti-discrimination ordinance by a wide margin"
I know. It's 31-0 in statewide votes.
As I've said to others (perhaps not on this forum, though), although I oppose the extension of anti-discrimination protections to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgender individuals, it seems inevitable at this point that such extension will occur. Absent a revival, I also don't think the statewide vote results will remain unanimous.
Mob Rule
Kalamazoo voters approve anti-discrimination ordinance by a wide margin
KALAMAZOO â€" Kalamazoo city voters decisively adopted an ordinance Tuesday that extends anti-discrimination protections to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgender individuals.
The ordinance passed 7,671 to 4,731, making Kalamazoo the 16th city in Michigan to adopt such a gay-rights ordinance that grants the protections in the areas of employment, housing and public accommodations.
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2009/11/anti-discrimination_ordinance_1.html
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