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Gettlefinger's Contract Fatigue
Sorry home slice, a UAW non-skilled trades worker and some skill trades members are still way over paid. With an avg salary of 55k not counting benefits that puts a UAW member on par with someone with a college education working as engineer. Add in benefits are your making more than some engineers with a college education. This is wrong and needs to be corrected, plain and simple.
If the UAW would rather have no job than make concessions, I say give then what they want and move their jobs to right to work states and be done with it.
So sick of the UAW
I hate seeing jobs leave the area, but Ford, GM, and Chrysler need to start looking at right to work states and just be done with the UAW. The UAW just just don't get it. Their lazy (don't tell me your not i've been in several plants UAW and non-UAW, UAW workers don't WORK), most UAW plants have poor quality compared to non-union plants in the country, and are over paid STILL.
I say good riddance to the UAW. Thanks for destroying an industry, by being too inflexible.
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SittingInDetroit
I was comparing Ford to GM and Chrysler. Toyota hasn't been battling lose of market share for the past 10+ years like Ford or GM. I'm not arguing how or why that is (no it wasn't luck). Comparing Toyota situation to Ford is not Apples to Apples. If Ford doesn't get 25 bill in mid 2006 they are in the same boat with GM and Chrysler. Was it good business? Maybe, we'll never know for sure, but Ford isn't out of the woods yet, and it's bit premature to declare them the only good US automaker is all i'm trying to say.
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MR. DUD
Some will argue it was good business, but honestly i feel like it was luck. For example Ford got something like 25 billion dollars (according to Wikipedia, i'm trying to find a better source) for the rights to all Ford model names and Ford properties. I dug up this article here http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,201563,00.html. Where Bill Ford basically says he had to do it, it was Ford's only option to stay out of bankruptcy.
At the time it looked like desperation. Now it looks like genius, but honestly I think their hand got forced at the right time (the top of the credit bubble) and they got lucky. When Chrysler tried to do something similar last year they couldn't even get a billion dollars. GM also tried to this and didn't not get an offer even close to what Ford got. If GM and Chrysler would have done this in 2006 or early 2007 they probably would have gotten a similar amount of money and might not be in chap 11 now.
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I don't believe Ford should get a free pass here. Though they are not taking money now, if the market does not improve they will be taking money next year.
The only reason Ford is not taking money is they got luck and got in trouble first. in 2007 Ford had to sell assets/leverage assets or file for bankruptcy. This was before the financing bobble/scam/whatever you want to call it blow up. They were able to leverage up those assets and avoid bankruptcy. GM and Chrysler both tried to do the same last year but it was already to late by the time they started.
I'm not trying to defend GM or Chrysler here and i'm not saying don't buy Ford, but giving Ford a free pass for being lucky isn't exactly good either. You may end up paying more for that Ford then you bargained for if things don't pickup.
Fiat Buying Chrysler
That is a great question. What is or who are foreign companies anymore. Is honda,toyota, or Subaru? They are all built in Indiana and you have to be a US citizen to work there
I would say if people only bought the foreign cars that were built in the US it doesn't matter as much. However, people tend to forget about all of the other jobs that are linked to cars. For example lets take Chrysler/Fiat car built in Mexico and pit it against Accord built in Indiana. So you gain 1000 mfg jobs in Indiana and lose 1000 mfg from x Chrysler/Fiat in the US. Now where do the parts come from. Most of the parts for the Chrysler/Fiat come from suppliers in the US, usually 60+%. Most of the parts for the Accord however come from outside of the US. Close to 60+%. Now factor in those jobs mfg, engineering, and supporting those parts. Then take the engineering, design, and support for these cars into account. Most of the engineering and design for Chrysler/Fiat is done in the US. The Accord is mostly done in Japan.
You can't just look at factory jobs when factoring in whether buying a US car built in Mexico or a foreign car built in the US is the same thing. My guess is you lose at least 4 US jobs in the scenario. More if it was US car built in the US and/or foreign car built outside the US.
I'm not saying your right or wrong, i'm just saying there is more to be considered than just where the vehicle is actually assembled.
jamesjones det
First off, i'm not worried about my career, I will just tell my wife we have to move because of the UAW and I will find a job no problem. That's the point of a college education. I don't need a UAW to suck a company dry to stay employed.
2nd labor laws don't guarantee, double and triple time pay for salaried employees. Of course being in the UAW i'm sure you don't understand that.
3rd line working outside of the UAW avgs about $14 an hour 30K a year (base 40 hour work week). They do the same amount of hard work as you (probably more).
4th The avg in plant skill trades worker gets about $21 an hour or 45k a year (base) with time and a half for OT. I don't know of any that get double time for over 10 hours worked. SOME get double time for Sundays. Very few get double time on holidays plus their holiday pay. I know a guy that works for BMW in South Carolina, millwright, makes about 80k works 55 to 60 hours a week. Which is btw about avg. Same worker for big 3 would gross over 100k and would complain that anyone can make a 100k working less hours at home depot.
5th I've been in several plants my friend (GM Orion, GM hamtramck, Jeep Toledo, and Brampton ON). Most of he work UAW workers do is not that hard and let me tell you, liqueur bottles, playstation in the cribs, sleeping on the job, using the excuse oh... break is in 10 minutes i'll start after that... then you have to hunt them down again and when you do find them again, oh... it's 20 minutes lunch i'll start after that. When you go find a union representative they try accusing you of taking his/her job because who am I to try to make a union member do their JOB. This is just a normal day at any big 3 plant. Fear for your life with the hilo drivers around because their all drunk by 11 am.
6th an uneducated line worker should never make more then the national avg for their position regardless of what the company makes. With the type of benefits UAW members get, they should probably make less.
the UAW is out of touch with reality. It's just that simple.
iscott
You obvious have UAW illusion syndrome. Salaried employees (a.k.a. engineers, designers, etc...) are paid far less than the industry average for the big 3. While their union counterparts are paid far more than the industrial average.
My brother and his wife are both UAW members, they avg 85k (electrician) and 60k (line worker) a year. 85K for an electrician at a factory is out of control. NO ONE ELSE makes that kind of money being an in plate electrician. My brother out earns me, a college educated software engineer that works for one of the big 3. Plus i don't get a pension, I have to pay for my retirement myself, my health benefits aren't as good and I pay FAR MORE for mine then he does for his, I don't get to sleep or play PlayStation on my job because "the line is down", I don't get 15 minute breaks every 2 hours, I don't get as much vacation as him, I don't get a 2 week shutdown in July, I don't get paid overtime, I don't get to work overtime just because the line is running (and why would I want to, don't get paid for it). I don't get paid double time plus 8 hours (triple time) for working a holiday. I don't get 80% of my pay if I get laid off. I don't get health care after retirement (though new UAW workers don't know either).
90% of you UAW workers have no idea how good you have it and it makes me sick. I would have moved out of this state years ago if it wasn't for my wife wanting to stay here because of her family. I can't stand the way most of the UAW works whine about us salaried workers when you have no idea how much better you morons have it. You guys, YOU the UAW, killed these companies. If I didn't work for the big 3 I would buy a foreign car just to see you guys lose your jobs. This is what most of the country thinks of you and why YOU are the reason these companies are on life support, not CEOs and not salaried workers. So cheers, here's to you having to learn what it's like to work for a living!
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