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The New Opel Corsa -Fhs1 - GMzip
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To 69 RR CONV.,
WELL DONE! Good research in your post Sun. 11/22/09 10:39 AM!
Thanks!
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People who signed up on Nissan's website.
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geek49203 said:
"..And, I'll ponder most of that while driving a 50 mpg diesel that can burn pretty much anything as I drive it for 400,000 miles (500 miles before I need to stop for fuel)."
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Here is an imflamatory statement.
All else being equal, diesel fuel prices could be slightly more than TWICE (2.3X more precisely) the price of gasoline before the AVERAGE (21 mpg) Detroit vehicle could save more fuel DOLLARS than your 50 mpg diesel.
Of course we have to adjust that thinking to account for the cost premium for the purchase the diesel vehicle compared to a comparable gasoline vehicle.
Still, that is impressive ....
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Honda efficiency
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JoeAmerican states:
"Compare mileage of similar vehicles. Don't compare car/truck companies to car companies. Our Government CAFE measure is very poor for comparisons."
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Just in case you are interested in more precise comparisons, NHTSA posts comparisons of "passenger vehicles, foreign and domestic" separately (without trucks) in a database accessable from their website.
If I remember correctly, the CAFE values for "domestics" were still about 10% below "foreign" passenger vehicles. And that is even AFTER including about 1.2 mpg "CREDIT" for things like FlexFuel.
BTW, I am very glad your Focus is getting 40 to 42 MPG Hwy (averaging over 75 MPH) and this goes up to 45-48 mpg when driving 55 to 65 MPH. Your average is just a little below the guy in Kentucky that is getting 44.2 mpg average with 90% highway with his 2009 Focus. I guess hyper-miling does work!
Just the way it is ...
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The New Opel Corsa
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To GMZIP,
I thought about our discussion yesterday regarding restrictions on GM importing "small fuel efficient" vehicles and end up with a few questions.
1) Do you have any idea what the development and start-up costs and times are for a TOTALLY NEW vehicle/power train (either large or small vehicle)?
2) What are the RISKS of low customer acceptance (low market penetration/share)?
3) How about the development and start-up costs and times are for the second iteration (second year) of that same vehicle?
4) BTW, what would be defined as "small" and "fuel efficient"?
5) Did Chrysler get a similar restriction prohibiting import of "small fuel efficient" vehicles?
I need someone to help understand these items.
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CAFE is a poor measure
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JoeAmerican,
Here are your picks (I took the liberty of ADDING the Cobalt XFE and the Hyundai Accent Blue because they had better FE numbers than your choices),
In the C class segment of apples vs apples Comparing the most fuel frugal configuration I could find (manual trans / Gas):
2010 Ford Focus *** 28 mpg combined average ***
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?column=1&id=29292
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2010 Chevy Cobalt *** 29 mpg combined average *** (JoeAmerican's selection)
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?column=1&id=28554
2010 Cobalt XFE Sedan ***30 mpg combined average ***
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008seleeng1f.jsp?year=2010&make=Chevrolet&model=Cobalt XFE Sedan
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2010 Honda Civic *** 29 mpg combined average ***
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?column=1&id=29701
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2010 Accent Hyundai *** 30 mpg combined average ***
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?column=1&id=29294
2010 Accent Blue *** 31 mpg combined average ***
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008seleeng1f.jsp?year=2010&make=Hyundai&model=Accent Blue
Source: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm
Yes the Cobalt matches, while the Cobalt XFE beats (by 3%), the Civic and the Hyundai Accent in combined average.
However, NOT the case with the "unbeatable" Hyundai Accent Blue (ALMOST 11% higher COMBINED AVERAGE than the Focus and 3% higher than the Cobalt XFE).
It is FURTHER agreed that IF the majority of your driving is highway you should probably use highway mpg as the selection criteria.
However, still there is no GM vehicle with a combined average ABOVE 30 mpg REGARDLESS of their highway rating.
Glad you like your Focus BTW.
In my Interstate driving experience on the likes of I20, I40, I85, and I95, (at or slightly above speed limits, generally 65 to 70 mph) more of those "small foreign" vehicles pass me than I pass of them ... even the Prius.
Just what I observe ...
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Honda Fuel Economy
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IXLR8,
How about Honda's:
jet engines
Corporate jets (the last I heard Honda's production was per-sold for about 2 or 3 years)
marine engines
robotics
Just a few that come to mind.
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The New Opel Corsa
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GMZIP stated:
"As part of the bankruptcy agreement that gave the UAW an 18% ownership in GM in exchange for federal funding of the UAW VEBA, GM ageeed to build all FUTURE small fuel efficient vehicles in the USA at UAW assembly plants and NOT import such vehicles, thereby protecting UAW jobs....That is why the Chevy Cruz will be assembled at the Lake Orion, Michigan facility and not be an import."
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IF that is true then you and the union need to quickly figure out how to define what "small fuel efficient vehicles" are and learn how to build them in the US profitably ... VERY VERY soon!
BTW is a Cruze by definition a "small vehicle" or is it just fuel inefficient?
Either way ... GOOD LUCK
and
GET the US SOME VERY FUEL FRUGAL VEHICLES (midsized and small) QUICK ... IF you want to expand total annual US automotive sales in hopes of stabalizing and hopefully expanding domestic automotive industry employment!
Otherwise, sooner or later one of the "foreign" OEMs will make the "move" and take the "above 44 mpg combined average market segment".
As I have said several times before, keep an eye on Hyundai and Kia. They are already on the move challenging Honda. And they are experiencing unimaginable pressure in S. Korea to increase fuel economy of ALL of their vehicles ABOVE 40 mpg(US) combined cycle by 2016 (new regulations with very "painful financial penalties" issued June 2009, first stage starts 2012).
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The New Opel Corsa
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Good catch 69 RR CONV.,
When GMzip made the comment "UAW restrictions imposed on GM by their 18% ownership of GM the importation of such a vehicle into the USA would be prohibited" ... I did NOT think. I guess based on the absurdily of things today I accepted it as a "truth".
You are right, considering Saturn's prior existance disproves the idea of union exclusion of GM imports (a wish maybe ... but most certainly a "union death sentence" if it could be implimented).
The purpose of bringing up the Corsa at all was to demonstrate how obsolete Detroit generally, and GM specifically, are DOMESTICALLY in automotive technology ... nowhere close to the 63 mpg(US) combined average and 98/99 grams/km CO2 of Opel(GM)'s 2010 Corsa.
And here in the US, GM is trying to get the US consumer interested in a high 30s/low 40s Cruze in sometime 2011 or a "volt" whenever.
Oh well ... so it goes ...
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Let the Chips fall where they may! --- Fhs1
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69 RR CONV. said:
... Fhs1 you said on Fri. 11/20/09 12:49 AM - " C4C. Somewhere between 15% to 23% of vehicles purchased were apparently rated ABOVE 30 mpg combined average." .............. Fhs1..I have some questions for you. #1. How many models does Honda sale in the U.S. auto market?
REPLY
About 25 ... I kept loosing count of the various power trains. Here is a source:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?hiddenField=Manufacturer&year=2010&make=Honda
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69 RR CONV. said:
#2. If Honda only has FOUR models with 30 mpg combined or above - would that equal "15 to 23% of the models that Honda offers for sale in the U.S. auto market? #3. When it comes to the sales of just Honda's FOUR models that achieve 30 or above ABOVE mpg combined average - Would that really = the "15% to 23% of Honda vehicles purchased in the U.S. auto market in Oct. 2009?
REPLY
Both good questions. Honda was only a small piece of the data used to establish the 15% to 23% estimate of "above 30 mpg sales". Unfortunately I did not keep the orginal data derived from multiple sources. Further complicating things are that one Civic (the Hybid) is above and one Fit is below 30 mpg combined ... nothing is simple!
Keep in mind there are 36 different vehicles rated ABOVE 30 mpg(US) COMBINED AVERAGE in the current US market ... so Honda is only about 11% of the sector by model count, the same as Ford (and these are confounded by hybrid/non-hybrid versions of the same model).
The easiest way to assess the situation is looking at the C4C data and determining what fuel economy distribution could generate the overall fuel economy gains that were observed. Don't forget that there are Hyundai, Kia, Nissan, Toyota, VW, and I forgot who else to consider here for the 15~23% above 30 mpg combined prediction.
NHTSA has the actual numbers if there was a way to access them.
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69 RR CONV. said:
Honda Motor Company sold 85,502 vehicles in October 2009. I have to believe that the vehicles that Honda sold in the U.S. - Oct. 2009 would NOT represent "15% to 23% of Hondas volume of vehicles that get achieve 30 or above ABOVE mpg combined. If you can list the FOUR Honda models that get 30 or above ABOVE mpg combined -I can look up the sales numbers. Let the Chips fall where they may!
REPLY
You can try analyzing Honda sales above/below 30 mpg as a ratio ... but I doubt you that you can do much more with Honda than isolate the Civic Hybrids. The Fit, I question that one as well. Insights are readily visible and certainly not in question.
I honestly believe the demand exists for above 44 to 65 mpg combined average. I think it could easily be at least 15~23% and probably above 30% of TOTAL US sales (possibly 50% based on EU experience depending on vehicle and fuel prices). Opinion surveys have suggest that over 65% of US consumers are concerned about FE, all buyers certainly not. But some are ... and have money for the "right" machine.
Your thoughts ....
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CAFE is a poor measure
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JoeAmerican here are your picks,
In the C class segment of apples vs apples in Hwy mileage:
Comparing manual trans / Gas .
2010 Ford Focus 35 Hwy / *** 28 mpg combined average ***
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?column=1&id=29292
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2010 Chevy Cobalt 35 Hwy /*** 29 mpg combined average *** (JoeAmerican's selection)
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?column=1&id=28554
2010 Cobalt XFE Sedan 37 Hwy/***30 mpg combined average *** (my counter proposal)
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008seleeng1f.jsp?year=2010&make=Chevrolet&model=Cobalt XFE Sedan
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2010 Honda Civic 34 Hwy / *** 29 mpg combined average ***
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?column=1&id=29701
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2010 Accent Hyundai 34 Hwy / *** 30 mpg combined average ***
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?column=1&id=29294
2010 Hyundai Accent Blue 36 Hwy / *** 31 mpg combined average *** ALMOST 11% higher COMBINED AVERAGE than the Focus and 3% higher than the Cobalt XFE
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008seleeng1f.jsp?year=2010&make=Hyundai&model=Accent Blue
Source: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm
Yes the Cobalt matches, while the Cobalt XFE beats (by 3%), the Civic and the Hyundai Accent in combined average. However, NOT the case with the "unbeatable" Hyundai Accent Blue.
It is FURTHER agreed that IF the majority of your driving is highway you should probably use highway mpg as the selection criteria.
However, still no GM combined average ABOVE 30 mpg regardless of their highway rating.
Just what I observe ...
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The New Opel Corsa
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GMZIP said:
"FHS1....
Should we be concerned about or even interested in the Opel Corsa?????
Per UAW restrictions imposed on GM by their 18% ownership of GM the importation of such a vehicle into the USA would be prohibited. Sorry if I missed something here."
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A reasonable question.
I believe WE ... SHOULD BE BOTH INTERESTED ... AND ... CONCERNED about these Opel ... engines and POWER TRAINS ... at MINIMUM.
GM's competition is in the process of implementing similar technology AROUND THE WORLD ... and sooner or later it WILL APPEAR in the US!
Actually WE NEED it NOW for economic and NATIONAL SECURITY reasons!
In this stagnent automotive market, which would generate greater interest ... and SALES ... new sheet metal/glass/chome, ... more horse power, ... fancier infotainment, ... OR ... a competent 50 mpg(US) combined average vehicle configuration?
Would increased sales stablize automotive employment .... maybe even increase employment opportunities? These types of drive trains ARE more readily EXPORTED IN VOLUME than the niche big engined machines.
Maybe even more jobs. ... But, who cares ... right?
As far as the "UAW restrictions" are concerned ... those restrictions may become a "self-imposed death sentence" unless the UAW can figure out how to help GM and the rest of the NewDet3 radically boost fuel economy cost effectively (that includes development and start-up costs).
I believe absence of 50 to 65 mpg(US) combined average vehicles (similar to those, 42 by count, already being sold by the NewDet3 in Europe) in OUR, US, market is costing at minimum 30% in annual TOTAL sales! And possibly as high as 50% in lost sales.
What is your opinion?
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Honda most fuel efficient?
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djm7474 states:
"The headline of the article is misleading. Honda and Hyundai do not participate in as many vehicle segments as GM and Ford. They don't even make a real body-on-frame truck. Not only is the fuel efficieny data skewed, but so is their quality data. The devil is in the details."
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Take a look at NTHSA's fuel economy data for JUST PASSENGER VEHICLES. Even leaving in "MPG" CREDITS FOR FLEX FUEL ... Detroit does not beat the "foreign" OEMs in fuel economy. And that is TOTALLY WITHOUT ANY pickups.
I'm sorry that is what the data showed the last time I looked.
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Buy_American said
this article is "misleading" and "Why don't you compare vehicles from G.M to one of these two automakers heads up?".
I suggest that Buy_American pick the closest most fuel frugal vehicle GM has to the Ford Focus and compare COMBINED and highway mpg to the values tabulated in my reply to JoeAmerican: "leaders??" posted Sat. 11/21/09 07:48 AM.
Buy_American ... please share your findings with the forum.
IF ... I am wrong I would like to know. I AM still willing to learn!
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The New Opel Corsa
.Press release abstracted
"Opel Corsa: New heart, new muscles ... everything under the skin is new 2009-11-19"
Sorry about the link it is very long. You will have to cut-n-paste it IF you are interested.
http://media.opel.com/content/media/intl/en/news/
news_detail.brand_opel.html/content/Pages/news/
intl/en/2009/OPEL/11_19_Opel_Corsa_Muscles
I still say
"This GM/Opel press release 2009-11-19 sets the 2010 Corsa fuel economy between 32.2 and 44.3 mpg(US) combined for gasoline power and 52.3 and 63.6 mpg(US) combined for their diesels.
Yeah rrriiigth ... GM is "working hard" for the US CONSUMER, OUR ECONOMY, and OUR ... NATIONAL SECURITY!"
Just my opinion .....
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The New Opel Corsa
.Press release abstracted
Opel Corsa: New heart, new muscles â€" everything under the skin is new 2009-11-19
- Complete engine line-up has better performance, consumption and CO2 emissions
- New 95 hp ecoFLEX with 98 g/km CO2; top 130 hp diesel with 119 g/km CO2
- Advanced chassis set up and steering calibration improves comfort and fun
Rüsselsheim. Come January 2010, the Opel Corsa gets a complete re-make, with major engineering changes so numerous that the super-mini family is reshaped. A re-vamped powertrain line-up, chassis improvements and a steering recalibration will give the Corsa better performance and greater fuel economy â€" as well as superb passenger comfort, excellent handling and exciting driving dynamics.
The diesel emissions are just 98 g/km CO2 as a three-door and 99 g/km for the five-door Corsa.
http://media.opel.com/content/media/intl/en/news/news_detail.brand_opel.html/content/Pages/news/intl/en/2009/OPEL/11_19_Opel_Corsa_Muscles
This GM/Opel press release 2009-11-19 sets the 2010 Corsa fuel economy between 32.2 and 44.3 mpg(US) combined for gasoline power and 52.3 and 63.6 mpg(US) combined for their diesels.
Yeah rrriiigth ... GM is "working hard" for the US CONSUMER, OUR ECONOMY, and OUR ... NATIONAL SECURITY!
Just my opinion .....
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leaders??
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It just occurred to me that for more than four years GM's advertisements have focused on "more vehicles above 30 mpg than ...".
Obviously this is HIGHWAY mpg, since GM has NO vehicles that achieve "above" 30 mpg(US) COMBINED AVERAGE according to www.fueleconomy.gov! Otherwise, these ads would be fraudulent.
Could it be that GM Power Train Development is "encouraged" (pressured?) to "maximize HIGHWAY mpg", possibly at the expense of "city" and/or "combined average", for "advertising" purposes?
Just a question about "management" of "image building" through paid advertising versus "product delivery/customer experience".
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